Chairs Elected Jerzy Wieczorek, Rebecca Linton

Apologies Barrie Dobson, Arthur Howarth, Ian Muir

Minutes Accepted

Adrian O’Connor Andy Bateman and Angela Benham reported that the job share had worked very well.

Andy expressed regret that due to pressure of circumstances he had to resign.

The Secretaries hoped that a third person with new ideas and vision would choose to put themselves forward in the course of time and form another trio job-share as this could ensure continuity in the future as well as share out work and responsibilities.

Adrian O’Connor and Angela Benham had supported each other in fulfilling this post.

An external accountant had prepared the accounts but in Adrian’s it was unnecessary and expensive to do this annually due to the generally stable, predictable nature of the account business. He felt biannual external preparation would be adequate.

Adrian had included a ‘guesstimate’ for expenses for the oncoming year 2003-2004.

He explained to Colin Knowles that the plan to give Officers a budget had not been implemented as intended.

Adrian also explained to Dave Jefferies that the money transferred related to the Thirlmere hut valuation fee and the decrease in the Hut Fund was the net difference. In the event Liz Pickles’ offer to sort out the money in the Hut/Action Fund through an analysis of Batch Numbers had not been actioned so the Acting Treasurer had done the analysis and a single transfer made so the Action Fund had an opening balance of £1672.90 and the Hut fund an opening balance of £4909.38.

Accounts To Be Accepted – Proposed: Jan Lancaster Seconded: Dave Jefferies

Gill Platt reported that we had 389 members at present. A few new members had joined and a few had left but movement was relatively flat. She provided a banding sheet for information.

Linda Goss explained that her main role was the to be keeper of the diary and to ensure that all members knew what events were taking place. The key importance of the MIS was re-iterated by Colin Knowles later in the meeting.

She said that she had found the new Contact Details Insert very useful.

Dave Jefferies reported that he had re-organised e-mail addresses so that they were now role-based and had helped disseminate urgent information e.g. corrected diary via e-mail. He felt there had been less change than there ought to have been.

There were important issues pending relating to Club subscriptions to the BMC, which were covered in more detail later in the meeting.

Andy Bullivant explained that he had sought to attend Peak area BMC meetings but could not always be present. He would be pleased if someone would volunteer to take over the role of BMC officer.

He pointed out that it would be good if Red Rope members attended more area meetings.

Arthur Howarth was unable to be present.

Adrian reported that it had been necessary to cancel the October Dundonnel trip due to too few people expressing interest.

There was a need for a wider pool of organisers to come forward.

It was thought informal trips abroad would work well.

Geoff Boyling reported that he and Jan Lancaster had done some navigation skill sharing at the Tranearth meet. He had set up a discount scheme with Cotswolds and was ready to do what he could to meet members’ expressed training needs.

Barrie Dobson was unable to be present.

Adrian explained that due to ill-health Barrie had not been as active in the post as he would like. He was happy to continue as Rep. but it would be good if someone volunteered to support him in the role.

Jan Lancaster reported that there had been four ways of promoting Red Rope during the year.

1. With the help of Adrian and his ideas she had organised the production of the Regional Representatives Red Rope Information folder which contains e.g. welcome letters, constitution etc
2. A poster to post and publicise RR was available
3. Adverts were in climbing magazines and the aim was to get them in walking magazines too.
4. There were general flyers available for distribution.

Charlie voiced other members’ views that the Regional folder was a very helpful initiative and thanked Jan for her efforts.

Titch Kavanagh reported that there had been 24 requests for information in period Jan-Sept. 2003. Publicity via the website and posters was very important. Titch was willing to stand for one more year. Posters displaying his name would hopefully be used up in that period. He hoped that regional e-mail systems could be set up which would be secure and professional.

Charlie Fisher reported that both he and Chris Cant, who had been working with him, had the disheartening feeling that the procedures associated with the CROW legislation had been created to exclude and confuse rather than assist people; although some rambler groups felt more positive. They had attempted to communicate with Kate Ashbrook about matters but she had not got back to them yet. Others, including Jerzy Wieczorek, had been active. Charlie expressed the view that there was a feeling the spirit of the legislation was being perverted slightly in favour of landowners.

On behalf of the club Charlie had opposed the hydro-scheme in the Schieldig/Torridon area Charlie was prepared to stand again and would welcome ideas and contributions.

Colin Knowles and Chris Smart reported that due to an injection of cash via the National Secretaries there had been a leap forward in the re-sorting of the archives and that there was now a very good grasp of what archives the club possessed. Lack of time meant that the archives had not been put on-line. Due to a change in circumstances Colin and Chris needed to relinquish the post.

Sally Brown apologised for the printer’s error in publishing the wrong diary. She thanked Geoff Boyling for his contributions and made a plea for people to make a special point of submitting photos of trips and activities as well as articles to her.

Ian Muir was unable to attend the meeting. It was understood he had a full list of equipment and its whereabouts. Julian Noble suggested that it could be useful for this list to be available on-line.

Humphrey Southall reported that it had been a buoyant year. Things were flourishing and there was a large surplus from the 5 trips that had taken place during the year.

Andrew Phillips reported that he was happy to continue to act in this role. Werner Kraft emphasised the importance of people getting more experience and training in alpinism so that there could be more skill sharing founded on practical knowledge from skilled mountaineers. He felt this would encourage the participation of younger people.

Colin Knowles pointed out that 25 years ago few were able to go abroad but nowadays it was much more commonplace. He felt it would be good if a small group of people on the National Committee could consider how to develop hill-walking/mountaineering trips abroad.

Could a date and place be established for those who wanted to go and could some skill-sharing/training take place during that time period.

Andy Bullivant suggested anyone who wanted to go could put date into their diary.

Julian Noble queried why such trips abroad could not be called ‘formal’ Red Rope trips even if they were without the traditional banding/charging structure.

Dave Jefferies expressed the view that the banding/charging structure of Red Rope is a core feature of the club and to abandon it would fundamentally undermine the club. He also queried whether the Alpine Activities Co-ordinator’s post was a National Committee post.

Julian Noble suggested there might be a wish to review the fundamentals of the club.

Andy Bateman observed that the exchange underlined the complexity of moving forward when there are hardline principles involved. He suggested that ideas and views needed to be exchanged and a formal motion considered next year.

Werner Kraft offered to write an article for the bulletin and encouraged all to participate in special training.

Andrew Worsley expressed his view that the 2002 minutes stated that the matter was due to be discussed at the 2003 AGM after running for a year.

Adrian O’Connor pointed out that if the re-draft of the constitution were accepted by the meeting it would have implications for the election of officers so the re-draft needed to be discussed first.

This re-draft resulted from the view that the existing constitution had been getting out of date.

It was put that unless there was a point of principle the National Committee would ask that the re-draft be accepted or rejected as it stands with the understanding that any comments regarding wording would be addressed by the National Committee.

Andrew Worsley queried paragraphs 4c vi and vii. After discussion it was agreed these paragraphs were acceptable and not contradictory.

Nick Kempe’s suggestion that we should use the BMC wording as regards access in the Action Policy Point 7 was accepted.

Julian Noble and Dave Jefferies’ view that figures should not appear in the core of the constitution was accepted as a fair point, which had yet to be addressed.

Charlie Fisher explained the rationale behind Policy paragraph A2. It was felt to be only fair that Red Rope members who gave time to attend National Committee meetings should have the right to vote at them as NC members have. This had not been allowed in the past because of the fear of possible subversion.

Jo Mills asked for the National Committee agenda to be published on the website.

Sally Brown offered to punctuate the constitution for publication.

Richard Chessman pointed out that the constitution defines formal Red Rope trips as being within Britain. He added that he felt that charging was according to peoples’ ability to pay should be in the constitution rather than the policy. Dave Jefferies emphasised the point that the club believed in income sharing.

Jerzy Wieczorek reminded the meeting that there was no attempt being made to insert substantive changes in the constitution/policy by sleight of hand.

Andrew Worsley mentioned that regional trips were not mentioned in the constitution.

Andy Bateman said that regions used the same income-sharing principle. Red Rope regional trips are charged using the same structure.

Humphrey Southall queried whether the mileage charge was 3p or 5p per mile as the meeting when it was rescinded was not quorate. The most current figure was on the web.

Colin Knowles reminded the meeting that there were finance motions to discuss on the agenda. A lot of work had been done on finance supported by the National Committee.

Charlie Fisher admitted that it was an omission that there was no motion to remove figures from the policy. It had not been possible to tackle all the issues but the aim would be to continue working on matters during the year 2003 –2004.

Jo Mills suggested that all members attending the National Committee meetings should have their transport paid.
Adrian O’Connor replied that there were cost implications that would have to be thought about and the club would have to decide the matter.

Andy Bateman made the point that with the exception of the hut issue the club functioned quietly and without controversy. We can afford to sort matters out.

The vote to accept the re-drafted constitution was carried unanimously.

There were no abstentions.

The officers below were nominated en bloc by Andrew Worsley and seconded by Andy Bateman. All were in favour of their election.

The National Secretaries had advertised for a third person to join them but no one came forward.

National Secretaries Angela Benham and Adrian O’Connor

National Admin Treasurer Neil Roberts

National Trips Treasurer Humphrey Southall

Contact and Information Officer Titch Kavanagh

Membership Secretary Gill Platt

Bulletin Editor Sally Brown

IT Officer Dave Jefferies

National Trips Secretary Arthur Howarth

Training Officer Geoff Boyling

Ramblers’ Association Officer Barrie Dobson

Publicity Officer Jan Lancaster

Access & Conservation Officer Charlie Fisher

Gear Co-ordinator Ian Muir

The posts below involved a greater level of discussion.

MIS Editor Gill Platt

Hut Officers Adrian O’Connor and Angela Benham

Alpine Activities Facilitator Andrew Phillips

Representative Vacant

Archivist Vacant

Gill Platt offered to take on the post of MIS Editor when no one else volunteered to accept the post. Colin Knowles pointed out how important the role of the MIS was in keeping members informed of activities and there was regret that there were no other offers to accept the post by a person who held no National Committee post.

With no other person offering to take on the post of BMC Representative Andy Bullivant agreed to be a caretaker of the post although having held the post several years he would prefer to pass it on.

No one was willing to take on the new post of Mountaineering Council of Scotland Representative and it remains vacant. This post is open to Scottish members.

Colin Knowles explained aspects of the post of Archivist. Most of the material was sorted. There was a wish to put the archives on-line but a difficulty associated with doing this was data protection when individuals’ names and personal details are mentioned.

Also there was no club policy as regards making the archives accessible to non-Red Rope members.

No one offered to take on the post of Archivist and it remains vacant.

Adrian O’Connor said that the hut issue had gone quiet but he and Angela Benham were willing to stand as hut officers to go out and continue to look for somewhere suitable as a Red Rope hut. A budget of up to £300.00 for the year was requested

Proposed – Jan Lancaster Seconded – Andy Bateman

23 In favour 8 Against 8 Abstentions

All were in favour of Andrew Phillips’ election to this post.

Charlie Fisher explained that 3 people from the National Committee had formed a sub-committee to work on the finance motions, which had emerged from listening to people’s grumbles, e-mails, ideas and observations. There was more work to be done.

F1.

Present income bands have not been changed for a long time. They need to be rooted in hard fact more. People often struggle to identify their banding and some people are deterred from going on trips because they believe their banding is unreasonably high. The aim would be to carry out a consistent change across all bands and make it fair for all members. All bands would get proportional treatment.

Richard Chessman checked that this would apply for people in the lower as well as the higher bands.

Sarah Bates checked that evidence would be got from the top bands.

Dave Jefferies said that expanding things up would make sense.

James Stern said that looking at the estimated income for 2003-2004 there was only a slender margin.

Adrian O’Connor explained that this calculation was assuming the club absorbed the whole of the BMC’s threatened increased charges and it was only if that happened that the current surplus would disappear.

Andy Bateman explained that the bulk of the financial impact would in fact be experienced at regional level. We would have to look for feedback from regions.

All were in favour of the National Committee amending income band thresholds substantially in order to better reflect reality.

F2.

Charlie Fisher explained that the hardship band was little known about and little used and should no longer be offered. The resolution proposed that instead a flexible approach to difficult personal circumstances should be taken when applying trip charges.

Julian Noble suggested better wording could be used.

Dave Jefferies’ view was that it was less demeaning to go through a formal process than an informal one.

Jo Mills suggested the threshold for Band B could be dropped.

Humphrey Southall gave some specific background. When the old bands A/B were scrapped anyone getting minimum benefits would come into Band C. This would be people such as students, young people leaving home because of abuse, asylum seekers.

The lower Bands B and A can cater for individuals in that financial situation rather than a hardship fund.

Andy Bateman added that you could be nominally in Band H and find yourself in dire financial straits.

Trip Treasurers doing their job will hopefully have consideration for peoples’ real circumstances.

Colin Knowles pointed out that the rationale behind the Band A charge was that it should not be cheaper to go on a trip than to stay at home.

Liz Pickles checked that the hardship band related to trips only.

Charlie Fisher repeated that we were talking about exceptional circumstances and that there was a feeling Red Rope already provided for people on limited means.

This motion was passed with 22 for, 10 against and 4 abstaining.

F3.

Julian Noble was not in favour of the motion proposing policy is amended so that a car is normally considered part of trip finances only for the part of its journey for which it contains 2 trip participants because it could penalise individuals if this couldn’t be arranged.

Humphrey pointed out that cars are only included if Trip Organiser has asked a participant to bring it. Trips lose money when the use of transport is not carefully organised.

Charlie Fisher mentioned the club could not afford to finance uncontrolled use of cars.

Dave Jefferies pointed out the wording ‘a car shall normally be considered part of trip finances’ gives flexibility to the trip organiser.

Andrew Worsley spoke against the motion saying that he felt it unfair if you were asked to pick up someone on your way to a trip. The club was not short of money and it needed to encourage people to go on trips.

Jerzy Wieczorek mentioned the rules for regional trips, which meant individuals were exempt from being re-imbursed if going on another region’s trip.

Andy Bateman reminded the meeting it was present policy that was being amended so that trip organisers make sure people do not interpret rules disadvantageously for the club.

Colin Knowles urged support for the resolution saying that the reason for the money surplus was the use of transport was being controlled.

Charlie Fisher concluded saying that there were lots of variations and complexities in the use of transport commonsense should be applied and the wording ‘shall normally be considered’ noted.

The motion was carried with 9 against and 3 abstentions.

F4.

Charlie Fisher explained that this motion whereby drivers receive compensation based on a fixed rate per mile for each passenger carried favoured the environment and avoided stress caused by not knowing your car’s petrol consumption.

Jo Mills felt it was complicated.

Charles Jenkins felt the rate compared favourably with what he received from work.

John Shears did not feel it took account of the wear and tear and insurance costs of cars.

Humphrey Southall felt it lacked flexibility. It was difficult to get enough vehicles on trips.

Some cars have to go without passengers. How could mileage done on the trip be accounted for? Who would decide who gets the extra passenger and money? It was already a complicated system.

James Stern asked if the system would account for to and from the venue.

Jerzy Wieczorek said that he was not totally in favour but he recognised it was a move of a green nature.

Charlie Fisher summed up saying that it was expected that the trip organiser would apply commonsense in taking account of any individual having to scoot around a lot in their vehicle. Trip treasuring was done by negotiation with common sense.

The motion was passed with 19 for, 8 against and 10 abstaining.

F5.

The final finance motion instructing the National Committee to make minor adjustments to present trip charges, provide a statement at each AGM regarding changes and seeking approval and ensuring the efficient, accurate dissemination of correct rates etc was passed with all in favour except for one abstention.

Andy Bateman explained the single transferable vote system that was to be used in making a decision on what voting procedure the club would use in future.

Andrew Phillips spoke for the proxy voting system saying that the AGM should be the main way of making decisions but allowing a proxy vote would enfranchise more people.

Gill Cox spoke for the postal voting system saying that she envisaged it being used in the case of very contentious issues only. Ten per cent of the membership would have to be motivated to do something to set the procedure in motion.

Colin Knowles spoke for the delegate voting system saying that the criticism levelled at the existing system was that it did not involve members who did not attend the AGM. The delegate system gave people the opportunity to meet and debate a matter of great substance at regional meetings.

Adrian O’Connor spoke for the existing system of attending the Annual General meeting, taking part in an exchange of views and voting on matters there. He said that the existing system was simple and works and that another system was not necessary.

Andrew Phillips acknowledged that the alternative coin-tossing system was just for fun.

Dave Jefferies, Andrew Worsley, Andy Bateman, James Stern, Richard Chessman, Angela Benham, Julian Noble and Andy Bullivant gave their views on the pros and cons of the different voting procedures. Speakers for the different systems did a final summing up.

Then the meeting took part in a secret single transferable vote.

The final largest vote verified by tellers Jan Lancaster and Jerzy Wieczorek was

27 for the existing voting system – the status quo. There were 13 votes in favour of postal voting.

It was thus decided that Red Rope would continue with its existing voting system for all matters.

Andy Bateman expressed the view that it was arguable whether the majority of Red Rope members needed the BMC public liability insurance, which largely caused the proposed big increase in BMC subscription fees.

Colin Knowles replied emphasising how important in fact the third party insurance was for all Red Rope members whether they were walkers or climbers.

This insurance gives cover for all club activities and everyone in the club needs it.

Furthermore if these resolutions were passed Red Rope’s position in the

walking/climbing world would be weakened and the club no longer taken seriously.

Andy Bullivant explained that the BMC had deferred their decision on fees for a year and this gave us time to see how things develop.

Angela Benham expressed the opinion that it was important to take note of Colin Knowles and Andy Bullivant’s words in view of their knowledge and involvement with the BMC.

In the light of this a decision was made to withdraw the motions concerning the BMC subscription.

Sally Brown mentioned the idea of proposing there should be a Red Rope caravan.

Sally Brown and Pauline Appleton asked for help and guidance in organising a Christmas trip.

There was a majority of support for holding the 2004 AGM at Edale although Sally Brown and Pauline Appleton expressed serious reservations about the lack of indoor space for the children and a wish for more structured childcare using topics.

The meeting was brought to a close.

These typed minutes have been prepared from the full hand written AGM minutes taken by Angela Benham in all good faith.

10/10/03

Having submitted these minutes to the National Committee and corrected them according to the information received they are deemed ready for general publication.

16/10/03

Angela Benham