Minutes taken by Angela Benham

Election of Chair Dave James

Present 32 voting members’ names on registration form ( inquorate)

Apologies Humphrey Southall, Andy Bullivant, Chris Drinkwater

2001 Minutes Read, accepted after words on p.5 struck out as non-sense

Andy Bateman:

Year dominated by 2 issues :

1) Hut

Not possible for Red Rope (RR) to purchase Thilmere YH because it can’t afford it.

In negotiations with possible partner re: leasing part of new hostel built on the site.

2) Financial situation

It was recognised that Adrian O’Connor and Angela Benham had done a lot of work in sorting out the RR’s financial situation.

RR is now in possession of all money and knows how much it has and has had in the past.

The financial situation is beginning to be under control and if re-elected the National Secretaries (NS) are keen for proper organisation of the finances to be pushed through.

Other activities the NS have actively been involved in include:- calendar of events organised, survey on non renewal of membership, skill-sharing w/k, clean-up Markfield Quarry.

The NS expect the Hut and proper organisation of the finances to be the two main issues to be addressed in the year 2002-2003..

Adrian O’Connor - Treasuring Report

It was never the NS intention to be involved with treasuring and finance. Circumstances demanded it.

3 years accounts provided. Show regular surplus over expenditure. Expenditure fairly consistent including e.g. bulletin costs, postage, meetings.

Fairly even keel - with growing balance in admin. account.

There is money in Admin account, which should be in Hut or Action Fund. Sorting out which money belongs where requires sorting through appropriate papers.

RR doesn’t spend as much as taken in but not huge excess.

Much work still to be done on finances. The National Secretaries can pay the bills & identify where development work re: finances is required e.g. tying together trip charges etc but the NS do not want to be treasurer.

Paper puts forward ideas about how to get RR money into more order. It developed from Chris Cant’s enquiry about whether he could spend some money on access matters.

1) make individual officers accountable for what they do financially

2) indicate we expect members to spend money

Previously decision-making was done more informally. The NS wish the procedure to become more democratic so that all NC & members will know how choosing to spend money.

Desire to make treasuring more transparent. Looking into purchase of commercial software package so that accounts can be downloaded 3 monthly.

Aim is to check whether this idea is workable.

Chair – stated it was unusual to make 3 years accounts available

Adrian – explained that the NC decision that the AGM would be held in September made it good sense to end accounts in June so that they could be presented at the AGM - a constitutional change.

Chair – Good that the finances had been checked for the last three years

Dave Jefferies – proposed change in financial year accepted/sec. Jan Lancaster

Chris Cant – requested clarification on Access & Conservation account – (None exists as such –there is an Action Fund)

Andy Bateman – using AGM/NC

Chair asked for clarification on ACTION FUND

RR has Access & Conservation Officer.

It also has an Action Fund – ‘to finance campaigns’ Dave Jefferies quoted from Club policy.

Regular contributions have gone into Action Fund over the years & been banked with Hut contributions. A box of papers needs to be sorted, which determines what money belongs to Action Fund, what to Hut Fund.

(Lix Pickles has offered to sort through the papers and establish the allocation of monies).

Question asked – How should that money be spent? Any guidelines, procedures?

Titch Kavanagh - It was needs led when Tim was doing Access & Conservation (A&C).

e.g. W. Yorks planned day walk with asylum seekers – went thru NC.

Hard to get support from it for admin.

Chris Cant – Should something be done about what procedures required if you want to spend Action Fund money?

Colin Knowles – In past it has gone to NC to decide whether proposal falls within remit of Club at large.

Adrian pointed out that Chris’ original question was to do with spending on Access & Conservation. There is a budget for A&C.

The Action Fund is different. It should be open to any RR member to go to NC with proposal.

Titch – National Officers have pots of money. All members have access to Action Fund.

Suggested there should be a time limit for applications – within 3months/6 months/1 year you could apply otherwise none left.

Andrew Worsley’s suggestion the treasurer usually consulted rather than NS was noted. Dave Jefferies supported this saying ideal solution was that the treasurer had sole responsibility for Club funds.

Colin Knowles – For future presentations of accounts – charitable donations should have zero entry if nothing spent.

Income from different things e.g. T-shirts should be put down.

Adrian – agreed the accounts were not perfect – record-keeping received had not kept separated out items.

Use of software in future should remedy this.

Rebecca Linton – supported the expressed principles of openness & forward planning. Felt that in event of occasional emergency should trust our officers.

Dave Jefferies - When do we have last accurate accounts? 1994 was last time a deposit was made to fund though not clear whether it was to Hut or Action.

Colin Knowles - stated that from personal experience he knew how hard the NS had worked on the financial situation – a gruelling experience – the AGM members expressed thanks to NS - and showed they agreed generally with principles outlined with no abstentions.

Contacts Officer – Titch

Enquiries thru website/phone calls via Summit/ not many thru PO Box . Average – once a week.

Membership Sec - Liz Pickles

Membership stabilised – 384 (over last 12 months)

About 70 new members a year/about 70 leave

People most at risk of leaving after a year, then 5 years – if remain tend to stay

Liz retiring – prepared manual to go with database.

Job takes 4/5 hours a month

Thanks expressed to Liz for all her work.

Alvin Wood – asked what attracted people to RR

Jan Lancaster – wish to walk, climb, have children activities.

Survey re: why membership not renewed showed people interested in children’s walks/Sat walks.

Ian Muir will phone those not renewed every 3 months to encourage renewal.

Follow up very important.

Titch –Very important new members get a good welcome & practical help - & awkward situations avoided which have occurred in past.

Bulletin Editor Jake Jackson – not present

Thanks to Jake for all his work on the bulletin.

MIS (Monthly Information Sheet) - Linda Goss

Pleased that there had been more contributions this year.

More day walks than weekend trips recently.

Titch – 17 out of 20 w.Yorks members on e-mail & lot of communication this way.

BMC Contact Andy Bullivant -Apologies sent / No report

Chris Cant, Charlie Fisher, Angela Benham had attended BMC meetings - a way of keeping up-to-date with what happening in the wider climbing world.

National Trips Sec. Arthur Howarth

6 trips last year. Gogath camping trip went well but some disappointment no trip made a good surplus.

London having New Year Trip. All welcome.

Winter Mountaineering trip organiser – Rod Eastwood

Easter trip to Bowderstoane Cottage in Lakes.

Need motivated organiser for Mill Cottage.

Is there a group of people interested in Coruisk/Skye trip?

Arthur was thanked for all his work this year.

National Trips Treasurer Humphrey Southall not present/Apologies sent

Adrian explained that the reason there was no separate Trip Treasurer’s report was that all the papers had been with the Accountant.

Colin Knowles pointed out that it was not possible to download the complete treasuring forms from the web site & this needs to be rectified URGENTLY.

Andrew Worsley queried whether there was a need for excessive anxiety re: trip income if there is nearly a year’s buffer.

Training Geoff Boyling

New to job and club – settling in. Will write article for next Bulletin. Ready to respond to what people need/request.

Jan Lancaster has offered to help with map reading.

Titch Kavanagh – Bowderstone Cottage National Trip can be a National Training Weekend – Titch will be organiser.

Ramblers’ Contact Barrie Dobson - not present

Barrie sent apologies – not well. Willing to stand but may have to withdraw – any support appreciated.

Barrie thanked for his sterling work.

Colin suggested someone might support Barrie and by doing so learn more about the post.

Access & Conservation Charlie Fisher

Legislation proceeding – amendment process going well in Scotland. English/Welsh process more bureaucratic.

Chris Cant – had printed off draft maps. Worked together for a day. Compiled list of queries/ objections – land should be accessible but not on draft map.

Chris deserved thanks for all paperwork done.

Charlie & Chris would offer future A & C weekend.

Can still write to MPs etc . Charlie felt Club should take more interest in progress of this legislation.

Workshop arranged for Sunday a.m. Jerzy/London people taking interest. Would welcome more.

Charlie thanked for his efforts over the year.

Publicity Vacant

Titch had received 2 requests for publicity leaflets.

Jan Lancaster and Angela Benham – have some publicity leaflets if required.

Acting treasurers dealing with Greenshires publicity.

Titch mentioned Greenshires Climbing Conferences were an e.g. of when it would be good to be able to access funding quickly from NC.

Archivists Colin Knowles/Chris Smart

‘Cardboard box is fuller’

Intention to make the archives more accessible – scanned so available on the web.

Issue re: Data Protection Act will need investigation said Dave Jefferies.

Will work with IT officer.

Linda Goss said she had last 2 years’ MIS.

Gear Co-ordinator Ian Muir

Quiet year – only expense on kitchen equipment

IT Officer Lucy Thomas retiring/not present

Big Vote of thanks for Lucy’s brilliant work.

By careful & further use of IT could cut a great deal of expenditure on postage

All posts below voted in with no opposition under a block vote.

National Secretaries & Acting Treasurer’s Post Andy Bateman, Angela Benham, Adrian O’Connor

National Trips Secretary Arthur Howarth

National Trips Treasurer Humphrey Southall

Monthly ISEditor Linda Goss

Contacts Titch Kavanagh

BMC Contact Andy Bullivant

Ramblers’ Contact Barrie Dobson

Training Officer Geoff Boyling

Archivists Colin Knowles/Chris Smart

Access & Conservation Charlie Fisher

Gear Co-ordinator Ian Muir

Dave Jefferies said Treasurer’s Post a critical job. Suggested the NC should co-opt somebody if someone available.

Jo Keighley asked for details of posts.

Adrian – half a day a month approx. with software system should be more straightforward.

Requires computer literacy to basic level.

4/5 hours a month essential – preferably broken down into 2 sessions

Requires computer/laser printer/internet access

After discussions of the safeguards required to avoid conflicts of interest re: Gill Platt’s position as Membership Secretary and John Shears interest in purchasing the Thirlmere Hut

Gill Platt was elected as MS.

Safeguards agreed to: Gill Platt would withdraw from NC discussions involving Club/Hut

Treasurer monitors subscription monies paid in

Database updates – monthly report generated which goes to NSs

Takes a weekend a quarter. 3 people had expressed interest. Simon Woods, Amanda Sellar, Sally Brown. Retiring Editor Jake Jackson willing to offer support during handover.

Sally Brown elected.

Jan Lancaster elected. Publicity as good as the follow-up that follows it.

Dave Jefferies elected.

Ramblers’ contact assistant – NSs will look out for a willing person to support Barrie

In short John hopes to re-build a hostel on the Thirlmere site with a extension/barn-end adjoining which would be leased out to RR for an annual fee.

It is hoped that the details of John’s presentation will be published separately on the website.

Andy Bateman - John is in negotiations with YHA. If the proposal comes to anything a meeting would be arranged for full discussion.

Dave Jefferies What’s in it for you? Business plan done with & without RR

Why involve RR? I like the principles. More flexibility with

2 markets. YHA & RR – help under privileged

Olive Bowers – Funding? Lease - £2000 p.a. would cover administration.

Andrew Worsley – Requested map of site before any decision

Gill Cox – Was it decided there would be Alpine bunks? Not set in stone. Architect drawing up plans.

Liz Pickles – Any costings for insurance? Suggestion YHA special policy would be worth investigating.

Colin Knowles – Why decide 15 year lease? John mentioned his age a factor in saying 15 yrs

Malcom Donne – Would barn end be available for anyone? Discussion & agreement would be needed.

Jo Keighley – How much autonomy would RR have in administration of bookings?

RR would be in charge of barn-end. RR members would have to agree on how

many trips there.

Need for some agreement on forward booking – so could sell spare beds

Olive Bowers – Would John/Gill live on site? Yes. Hostel meals available to RR people

staying in barn-end. Andy Bateman added that flexibility could be built in re:

one part casual, one administered.

Colin Knowles – Said that John needs to know how people feel about the idea & people

could let the NSs know by post/ e-mail.

Members views on John Shear’s proposal re: Thirlmere Hut can be organised into a dossier.

Special Meeting to be called if progress made & John’s offer accepted.

Colin Knowles’ resolution developed out of group trip to Alps in September. View as mountaineering club should spread our wings & encourage members to do things at altitude.

Facilitator’s role – build up network –each year location/date suggested

Jan Lancaster – felt uncomfortable if under auspices of RR & there was no banding or NC

representation

Adrian O’Connor – for the idea- saw it as more a RR thing than an attachment but needs

to be embedded into the club – as club doesn’t have international meets

Malcolm Donne – sceptical about establishing a banding system

Facilitator could assist organising shared transport/other costs

Skill sharing for those less experienced.

Dave Jefferies – Useful information source. Could be point in discussing overseas trips in

general.

Why for high levels? Useful to have information

Charlie Fisher – bizarre economic times when trips abroad no more expensive than trips to

Lakes. Shouldn’t rule out idea on grounds of cost.

Titch - People doing it already. Natural extension of RR activities – individual

climbing/training North Wales out to Alps. Positive experience.

Done at low cost – took turns helping hrm

Spirit of Red Rope. Looking after each other collectively.

Colin Knowles - Not an organised RR trip – a gathering at a nominated place

Proposed and accepted that the resolution run for a year on trial. To be discussed at next AGM

Dave Jefferies - problems = non quorate meeting and motions require wide discussion.

HUT POLICY – if RR gets a hut it needs to be an asset

c) Acquisition – what organisational things req. e.g. solicitor’s fees

Adrian - No disagreement with anything individually or content but sees Hut Policy as

lacking flexibility.

Prefers if hut proposed – left open, you say this is a good building for a hut WHY?

Andrew Worsley - felt events overtaken resolution. Look at developing policy if leasing

Thirlmere does not go ahead

Eileen Robley - Agreed developing a policy – straitjacketing ourselves

Best not to rule out any options. Consider any hut on individual basis

Caz - Believed policy would be useful. Look at club’s needs first rather than hut.

Titch - Making things explicit and having them written down would be useful.

Colin Knowles - Document exists which was drawn up during investigation of Capel Curig.

Needs to be put on website for people to see – Gives guidelines for a hut that would fit the club’s needs.

Financial guidelines – would save work & help fast track procedures when a hut building came on the market.

Colin Knowles made a procedural point stating his belief that the motion should not be put as it was not correctly phrased to be a proper change of the constitution.

According to the RR constitution the AGM is the supreme ruling body. If there were a change in voting procedure passed without the provision of the ‘exact form of words’ the constitution would be violated.

Whilst a lot of people feel a postal vote could be useful this motion cannot be put.

The AGM was also aware that it was not quorate and no motions could in effect be voted

upon.

The meeting agreed, however, that time should be made available for an exchange of views.

Liz Pickles - buying a hut is not a hot issue at the moment but if it comes to a head again

• Needs to be a hard-headed decision with facts & figures
• Supported by the majority
• Hut fund wouldn’t cover it/Enormous amount of money would need to be borrowed
• Needs to be informed, democratic decision

Jo Keighley - We require a quorate meeting to decide this – Next SGM/AGM?

Chair - If a SGM were called - that meeting would have powers

It was stated that there was no collective NC view as there had been no opportunity to discuss it.

Adrian O’Connor - against a postal ballot - club at its core is about INVOLVEMENT

Postal ballot devalues involvement

Malcolm Donne - noted it was interesting the AGM was inquorate after so much

activity during the year

Gill Cox - said it was important the decision about the hut was made in such

a way that the whole club felt collectively to have participated in the

decision & that people did not feel so alienated from the decision-

making process that RR lost more members – therefore Gill felt a

postal ballot would be a good idea

Andrew Worsley - opposes postal ballots - believes you need to be part of the argument

Involved. Postal ballots not so informed,

Colin Knowles - if we held an SGM to discuss leasing Thirlmere - a discussion about

a postal ballot could continue as long as needed to air views

Dave Jefferies - should be member led club – this a very specific proposal

Given clause 13 – original expectation was money for hut would

be raised by hut fund. SGM okay.

Now part of a deposit with different, broader implications.

Becoming a limited company a huge change & need to involve

everybody ‘en masse’

Andy Bateman - Agreed with Andrew Worsley . If you want to make something work

You need people involved who are willing to do things.

People are not here because they don’t care. They know first Thirlmere

Plan isn’t going to happen, no decision about leasing Thirlmere going

to be made so it is safe not to bother.

Can never know why people haven’t come..

If people really concerned they do attend e.g. Capel Curig issue

People are not disenfranchised by the idea of having a meeting – more

by the fact they might have to work at the time of the meeting.

To be part of the decision – need to be part of the discussion.

What really convinces is a person putting their money where their

mouth is –you get that by listening to the debate.

I am passionately against postal votes.

Andrew Phillips - Said there is an argument for a proxy vote - inevitably some people,

(including those who usually attend meetings) might have to miss an

AGM e.g. work, ill, grieving etc

Some kind of proxy vote would prevent disenfranchisement.

The 2002 Red Rope AGM was at this time brought to a close with a vote of thanks to Dave

James for chairing the meeting.

The children who had been patiently waiting for some considerable time showed their poster against the proposed war against Iraq.

These typed minutes have been prepared from the full handwritten minutes by Angela Benham in all good faith.

11/10/02